planted birds vs wild birds

[gryphonshorthairs]

HI Gang
There has been a discussion going on about planted vs wild birds for training bird dogs.
I am sitting on the fence yes i use some planted birds for pups and young dogs that i am training.
But as they start pointing and figuring it out.i do not use them as much.Where i live on my
property i have grouse pheasnt and woodcock.Other than during nesting these birds help my pups
and younger dogs figure it out.Atleast for me this has worked over the years.There is another
gentlmen in montana who feels the same way.Loooking for some more thoughts.
Mike

[Whispering Hills]

Show me a dog that was trained only on wild game, and I'll show you a dog that isn't well trained.

There's no way you can control a training session without creating scenarios for your dogs. But you can in fact, easily discourage a young dog by NOT training in a situation where he will succeed in finding game. Just remember that there's no way to truly simulate a real hunt - so your dog must have both.

Ever heard the saying "Hunting is training, but training isn't hunting" ?

Start your dog on planted birds. Finish him on real hunts.

Jeff Jennings
Whispering Hills Kennels

[BlueRiverKennel]

Show me a dog that was trained only on wild game, and I'll show you a dog that isn't well trained.

There's no way you can control a training session without creating scenarios for your dogs. But you can in fact, easily discourage a young dog by NOT training in a situation where he will succeed in finding game. Just remember that there's no way to truly simulate a real hunt - so your dog must have both.

Ever heard the saying "Hunting is training, but training isn't hunting" ?

Start your dog on planted birds. Finish him on real hunts.

Jeff Jennings
Whispering Hills Kennels

Ding, ding ding... Yes 100% train your dog with training birds, then put your hard work to test on wild birds. No pups first experience with birds should be a wild pheasant or a gun. Get some pigeons or small birds and go about it slowly. With some one who knows what they are doing....

[SalmonRiverGSPs]

A quick question about using wild birds...bobwhites specifically. I had 25 mature birds lined up to get for training, and just before I drove 5 hrs one way to go get them, the farmer told me that they don't have any tail feathers. Obviously they can still fly, but will that cause them to fly poorly enough that I'll run the risk of my dog catching them?

[RangeViewKennels]

If they don't have tail feathers, they are not going to fly well.

[Whispering Hills]

...the farmer told me that they don't have any tail feathers. Obviously they can still fly, but will that cause them to fly poorly enough that I'll run the risk of my dog catching them?

If they fly at all, they won't fly well - and they know they can't. They're likely to try to hunker down instead, or run.

If your pointer has some discipline behind him, he'll hold them on point. If he's just starting, I wouldn't put him on cripples yet, because that will be too much temptation to catch instead of point.

You can use them this way if your dog has enough training to have a soft mouth: Hobble the birds' feet so they can't run. A little duct tape works great. That will cause the birds to just hunker down, which will more likely help your dog hold point instead of chasing and catching the birds. If your dog has a soft mouth, but can't resist snagging the birds, you can re-use the birds while you wait for them to get old enough to fly. I have ducks that have been re-used many times - years even. I hobble their feet, clip their wings so they can only fly short distances, and use a remote controlled bird releaser to put them up in the air. An added benefit to re-use is that the birds get mean and will fight the dog (I train retrievers). It really helps the dog learn how to deal with cripples, and makes them more aggressive on a retrieve. I can use a duck several times in a single session, then give him a week off and he's good to go again.

The key is making sure that your dog has a soft mouth before you try to re-use a live bird. Especially with fragile birds like bobwhites. Chuckars hold up better. Ducks and Pheasants are best.

Jeff Jennings
Whispering Hills Kennels

[gryphonshorthairs]

WELL WELL
Some intersting comments.The person who thinks my dog are not trained has not got a clue of
what he is talking about.My dogs are very well trained and i will put up my dogs against anyones
dog.As my dogs put in about 70 day days on grouse and woodcock every year.In the best grouse
state wisconsin.So when you make blank statements about dogs or their training watch and learn
before speaking.

[Whispering Hills]

WELL WELL
Some intersting comments.The person who thinks my dog are not trained has not got a clue of
what he is talking about.My dogs are very well trained and i will put up my dogs against anyones
dog.As my dogs put in about 70 day days on grouse and woodcock every year.In the best grouse
state wisconsin.So when you make blank statements about dogs or their training watch and learn
before speaking.

Wasn't my intent to push your button, gryph. I'm sure you'll see that my post wasn't directed at anyone or their dogs. It was deliberately a general statement.

You asked a good question. I answered it, and I absolutely stand by it. Do some research, and you'll find that every professional trainer will answer your question the same way.

With the hunting experience you say your dogs get, I'm sure they get the job done for you. But, put them in a controlled test under judgement to a performance standard where specific elements of training, individual and team (handler and dog) performance are scrutinized, and my point will be clear.

Cheers,

Jeff Jennings
Whispering Hills Kennels

[gryphonshorthairs]

Jeff
My dogs are tested in either akc huntests also being a hunttest judge or my dogs are trialed in
grouse coverdog trials.I understand the planted bird deal.My dogs use planted birds but since i have
so many wild birds on my land grouse woodcock and pheasant why not use them when i can.No
planted bird will ever teach a young dog on how to handle wild birds.My 9 month old pups play
the planted bird game but i can tell by their eyes they would rather chase wild birds.
Mike

[BlueRiverKennel]

LOL it is something how a key pad can blow things out of proportion. I don't think any one was meaning to harass anyone, just state to the ? that we believe training birds or planted birds are better in starting your dog out. If you are training for events.I would also believe you would want to use planted birds to control the situations more and make corrections.Not to mention hunting seasons. For pointers I also can see where some free running on some wild critters would be a good exercise. But limited to seasons, and then the events are fewer since hunting is in full swing. There can be a ton of variations to when and where. I was thinking you were talking puppy training or beginnings of a gun dog I guess. And for that I would always use small training birds. Or planted as you said.