need some training advice for my GSP rescue

[Scout Dog]

I'm looking for some advice on how to proceed with my GSP Scout. She turned 2 in September and I've had her since July. She shows a tremendous amount of prey drive on squirrels and lizards, but only shows minimal, if any, interest in birds. I've had her in the field a few times, check corded, with other dogs that are broke. She seems interested in what they are doing, but that's about it.

She is very anti social due to her former life before I got her. The limited history I know of is she was owned by a older gentlemen who was described as an "old school hunter", and lived in a kennel. I suspect she received no socialization in her early life, and only came out of the kennel to "work". Needless to say, she's not friendly to anyone but my immediate family. I boarded her with a referred trainer in the Tallahassee area for a few weeks so that he could work on getting that "coyote" out of her. After a few weeks back at home, she's doing better socially, but needs more work.

I'd asked the trainer to introduce her to birds during her stay, but he only put her on the chain gang and let her watch the other dogs. So I guess it's up to me to see what she's got in her.

I've brought home some birds (live) to introduce her to, and she does show some interest, but was easily distracted and lost interest on both occaisions. Both times I simply spun the birds in a sack, poured it out on the ground and let her react without me saying anything or coaxing. The initial time I did this, the bird walked over into the bushes, she walked up and pointed it. Then she walked around a little bit, and went back over and pointed it again. I moved in to flush it out and it flew off.

I repeated the same with the next bird. this time I spun it more times, and this bird just walked around some but never went to cover. Scout seemed interested, and pointed and walked with the bird as it walked, but then was distracted by others in the yard. She barked at the neighbor in the yard, and then came back to the bird. she went in to point it and the brid flew off as she watched.

A few days later we tried the same exercise but I tethered the birds foot so I wouldnt loose it. It never flew with tether, just walked around. She was interested at first, but lost interest quickly. My wife and son were with me that time and I wonder if that was too distracting for her, or was she just not interested in the bird. On this day, she quickly lost interest in the bird and went off to run around the yard. I still ahve 2 birds at the house in a cage I put in the garage so she can check them out if she wants.....and she really hasnt.

Any reccomendations of what my next step(s) should be? Wondering if/how to continue with the introduction to birds...thanks in advance for the advice.
Andy

[Whispering Hills]

Scout Dog

Understand that at two years old, your girl may never fully come out of whatever her background was. She may learn to hunt for you, but sadly, you should keep your expectations rather low for now, and be pleased with whatever progress she makes - even if it's little baby steps. The most critical time of her learning life is behind her now.

Here's a starting place for you:
Don't encourage her interest in any animal other than birds. Be very gentle with your corrections, but do make corrections if she chases other things. Squirrels and lizards are curiousities and it's great for her to explore, but never encourage her to pursue any animal but a bird.

Don't work with live birds yet. Start with training dummies. Get some bird wings and tie them tightly around the dummies. Freeze them before use - this will keep her from trying to eat them, but they'll still have plenty of scent and taste. Make a chase game with the dummies just like you would with a puppy. The idea is to get her interested in them. You can tie a short tether to them (20 - 30 feet) and drag them along the ground in front of her to make a chase game. This teaches her to use her nose and it will start her into tracking. Keep it a game, short sessions, lavish her with praise when she responds.

Once you get past that step - she knows the game, then start planting the winged dummies in the field. Drag them along the ground on a tether tied to the end of a stick. Get something long enough to lay a scent track that you haven't stepped on so that she isn't just tracking your footsteps. The tool looks like a fishing pole. You drag the dummy off to the side of your footsteps. I use an old fiberglass CB antenae. Do this until she knows the game.

Next, instead of dummies with wings, start using small frozen birds - pigeons, dove, quail, etc. Start leaving longer scent tracks, work up to bigger birds. Lay the track, then bring out the dog to the start of the track and give lots fo praise when she starts following it. Help her find the dummies.

If you can get her to become an ace on this game, then start using fresh dead birds instead of frozen. Start again with small birds and work your way up to bigger ones.

Then begin using live cripples. You don't want them to be able to fly away - it may discourage the dog at first. If you can get her to this level, you've got a started dog.

Important: DO NOT be in a hurry to move from one step to the next, and don't skip any steps. Don't get discouraged - remember you're working with damaged goods, and patience is basic to bringing her out of her disinterest. Be patient, patient, patient.

Let us knwo how things go.

Jeff Jennings
Whispering Hills Kennels.

[Scout Dog]

thanks for the advice Jeff. I've got a couple of wings in the freezer that I'll use the way you suggested.

She does have some good instinctive traits and some what might be learned behavior. For instance, she's not a bit gun shy. She's been shot over in the field on a few hunts and in the training field while she's been with me, and she doesn't show the least bit of alarm when the gun goes off...which is puzzling to me considering her general timid nature. She seems to have a natural retrieving instinct as she is constantly carrying around a stuffed animal or a ball, and loves to play fetch with any family member, and most times will retrieve to hand. I received her papers and pedigree when I got her. She has some champion line in her blood, but only minimal...Dual Champion and Field Champion.

I should probably also say that whether she ends up hunting for me or not, we're going to keep her. She's a good dog with a sweet temperment once she gets past being scared. If I learned anything from this experience it's this -- if you want a bird dog, don't commit sight unseen. Scout was supposedly a started dog when I took her. I never saw her work, just went and met her at the rescue and took her home. Needless to say our first experience in the field was not a good one, and I'll just say that I keep her check corded ever since then. I may be looking for another dog in the next year, and I'll make sure whatever dog that is, I take it to the field and try to work it myself with the assistance of the owner.

[Whispering Hills]

Scout Dog

I really appreciate your post. You say some things that tell me you are a good owner, and I know your dog is in a good home now. It's refreshing to see that. There's a big portion of the dog owning community that has no business owning an animal, much less attempting to train a dog.

Interesting what you say about your dog's lack of gun shyness, yet she's shy about other things. How is her hearing? Any indications she has some degree of hearing impairment? If she's comfortable around guns I would believe that either she wasn't abused by her trainer, or, the trainer never exposed her to gunfire. If she had been abused around gunfire, she would associate guns with the abuse. You would see her "fold in" when she hears a gun.

You can use her gun comfort to your advantage. When you get her to where she knows that tracking game, and you're doing it with real birds (frozen or not), take a starter pistol or your shotgun with you when you lay the scent trail. Remember to keep her kenneled or tied, preferrably where she can't see you lay the trail while you're laying it out. After you put down the trail, before you turn her loose, fire a single shot. Then immediately get her started tracking. She will quickly begin to associate the gunfire with tracking birds.

For dogs, learning is all about association. Another very important general rule is: help her be successful. If she has trouble picking up a trail, help her find it. If she loses it, help her get back on track. The idea is to build on success, and always end a session with a success. Dogs tend to remember the last thing they did. If you end a session with corrections, or with her becoming discouraged, she will remember it. If you end with a big success, she'll remember that, and be more enthusiastic about the next session.

You are right on about your lesson learned about knowing what you're getting before you buy. The same is true with buying a young pup. The best you can do is know who you're dealing with. References reveal lots of things. Direct questions like "would you do business with this trainer/breeder again? or "would you recommend this trainer/breeder to a friend? will tell you lots.

How do you feel about Labradors versus pointers? Are you set on another pointer when the time comes for your next dog? I might be able to help you with that when the time comes.

Jeff Jennings
Whispering Hills Kennels

[Scout Dog]

I appreciate the kind words Jeff. I find her lack of gun shyness puzzling also...and as for her former "trainer", when I asked the breeder if she happened to recognize the name, her response was "he's no trainer, he's just some damned kid!"....that response, coupled with the "trainer"'s unwillingness to return my phone calls told me all I really have to know....I also noticed on one of the gun dog forums that he was selling a dog and all the supplies for a hell of a deal...or at least what appears to be a hell of a deal....maybe he decided to hang it up.

Regardless of what her past is, she's in a good place now and gets lots of love. I let a few pen raised birds loose in the yard and they've been around for a couple of weeks now. She's got the point, but as you might've guessed, she doesn't really track with her nose...and I plan on working with her just as you've suggested starting this week when my work load slows down. I'll keep you updated on her progress. I'm trying to video our sessions when we go out and train, I have a couple of sessions already filed, I need to put them up on youtube and link to it here so you can see her in "action".

Funny that you mention labs. I've had labs and golden retrievers for nearly my whole life of 42 years. Prior to Scout, we had Max, my black lab rescue. He was with us for 11 years, and the day we had to put him down is a day we'll never forget. He was home with my wife while she was pregnant with my two kids...he woke me up from a dead sleep one night (with a low growl not a bark) to let me know that someone was trying to steal my boat out of the front yard...he protected my young kids from an irresponsible neighbor's wandering pit bull...simply put, he was special and we miss him.

I would definitely consider a lab as opposed to a pointer. I feel like I know retrievers from having them for most of my life. I have become very interested in "pointing labs" since getting deeper into this gun dog thing. Seems to be a good topic to bring up amongst gun dog folk if you want to spark an argument. : ) I would be interested in talking about it further with you. Did I see that you're in Oregon? Absolutely beautiful country and I'd love to visit there someday. I'm in North Florida. Do you raise "pointing labs"? How would you transport a dog across the country?

[Whispering Hills]

I have become very interested in "pointing labs" since getting deeper into this gun dog thing. Seems to be a good topic to bring up amongst gun dog folk if you want to spark an argument. : ) Do you raise "pointing labs"? How would you transport a dog across the country?

Andy,

Yea, topic of pointing Labs is a good one for debate. I just posted on that a week or two ago on this site.

Here's the real deal on pointing Labs: Yes, there are some breeders who are trying to breed pointing behavior into labradors - and apparently with some degree of success. It's also true that a Lab can be trained to point. I think it's important to understand the differences between flushing dogs (Labs) and pointing dogs, in terms of the way they hunt upland game, and why one or the other is advantageous for different conditions.

Flushing and pointing are arguably two opposing styles.

Pointers cover large open areas quickly. They run well ahead of the handler - far out of gun range. The team work is in the dog finding the bird without regard for the proximity of the handler, and then holding the bird until the handler catches up. The style/method is great for upland work in wide open places where the handler can see the dog at a long distance, and it allows the handler to walk less ground in those big spaces, because he's able to go directly to a bird that the dog has located. A disadvantage is where conditions don't allow for long distance visibility. That's why pointers are trained and handled with beeper collars. When the dog gets a 1/4 mile away and you can't see that far, it's a problem. You can spend a lot of time looking for your dog.

Retrievers are bred and trained to "attack" their prey. Flushing is an attack instinct. It's not unusual for a skilled Lab to actually catch a pheasant before the bird can get off the ground. A Lab will pull them right out of the cover and deliver them live if they hunker down and don't take wing. Labs are close-work hunters. They will instinctively quarter a field (needs refinement through training) within gun range. They work the field within gun range and put the birds up right in front of the handler. If the bird doesn't fly, a Lab will pull it right out of the brush and deliver it to you.

When I think about a pointing Lab, I question what advantage is to be gained by having a flusher that doesn't flush. Labs are bred to be adaptable and to hunt a field as well as they hunt in icy water, but their deepest roots are in the water. A water dog that doesn't attack is in my opinion worthless as a waterfowl dog, and a Lab does awesome work on an upland hunt - without needing a beeper collar. The breed standard is for a Lab to track and flush. I do my best to breed to breed standards with dilligence to physical build and appearance, temperament, trainability, and instincts. The goal is a dog that looks like a show dog, very gentle friendly temperament, and that hunts better than a field trial dog. I don't support breeding the "attack" instinct out of what I believe is the very best all-around family and working dog ever conceived. To breed a Lab to point rather than flush is in my opinion to breed out one it's best and most useful qualities. I just can't subscribe to the logic.

Transportation is doable. I have dogs all over the country and in Canada and Alaska. I book the flight - there are only certain carriers that I'll use. If you have an interest in details, I'l be glad to talk to you about it. We can do it on this forum, or if you like, feel free to email me directly or give a call.

Jeff Jennings
Whispering Hills Kennels
info@wh-kennels.com

NOT associated in any way with the MO puppy mill using my name