How much thought do you put into your litters?

[kninebirddog]

how much planning do you or people you know put into those pups before they are even conceived?

With the info highway we have at our fingers today I do think quality of litters for those that utilized the info have come a long way more consistency in the litters better temperaments healthier better conformation and trainabilty among a few things .


I have the Mans best friend software program and am constantly playing with virtual puppies.
I watch in the Brittany Mag and the NSTRA mag and other places looking for those dogs that are excelling and doing better pay attention to the lines which ones crossing well to which ones are flash in the pans. I also talk to other breeders about what they see working or not.

Right now I have some litters planned which will not take place for about 2-3 years only because the dogs I have in mind are not even whelped yet - just turning a year old and have passed the drive in the field to Pre lims on their hips now to see how they will finish out.

I have access to some frozen semen which one the sire to my Old Picabo the other will be announced when the time is right...As the females I am planning on using at this point one still has to pass OFA and prove to be a good Brood Bitch via natural before I invest in an AI the other isn't even whelped yet.

One litter I did was 4 years in planning they are just a year old....So far I think they are doing pretty nice.

I know many people do not get so involved with breeding a litter

But what are some things you do take into account

Will you seek a dog that has the desired traits and a bloodline that will enhance the breed you have chosen or will the first dog that has papers and comes into season or has nuts be OK.

Easy part to having a litter is tossing two dogs together and let them breed The hard part about a litter is selecting two dogs that have the desired traits with in what the breed is supposed to be bred for.

Are you willing not to breed to a well papered dog if it doesn't make the grade?

Would you breed to a gun shy dog?
I would never consider a dog that has such issues if they do not have enough prey drive to get over being gunshy this isn't a trait I think should be entered in to a gene pool


Do you try and find a suitable dog to up the good things in your dog and help even out the things that could be better?

Most important Do you have a plan for puppies that do not sale or will you treat the litter like a seasonal promo and discount the price just to get rid of them not even caring if you sell to an impulse buyer that will end up dumping the dog at a pound or rescue program.

The purpose of this post is hopefully to help people to use what the internet and other avenues of information and Breed responsibly.... Chances are much better for the pups produced if we take on that responsibility

I work on a preserve and about 2 or more times a year I get offers on puppies that didn't sell from breedings that were Well intentioned but not really thought out
Puppies that are now over 10 weeks old and the owner doesn't know what to do because people didn't come lining up at his door step to buy a puppy and he has spent 5 weeks advertising the pups in the paper
Dams and sires with no OFA ..or females that failed to have any traits to make them a hunting dog
Or the guy who has a pure bred female which he never did the papers on and just wants a pup and offers me the rest of the litter in exchange for a stud fee to my dog

I have friends in rescue that can tell you some heartbreaking stories of what impulse people do with dogs they shouldn't have gotten more often it is the poorly thought out breedings that land into rescue..


Even the most planned litters can have some problems but I know when I look to add a pup to my program I look to those wo take all the steps they can to insure a pup will have what it takes to be a bird dog/trial dog I look for versus someone that just grabbed the first two dogs with papers and let them do what comes natural



So breeders what do you do?

Buyers what do you look for?

[V-John]

Good post.
I run Vizslas, and while there are a lot of great dogs out there, there is a lot of garbage out there. I'm also involved in Vizsla Rescue and foster dogs for rescue. I see a lot of different vizslas. Some of the best, and some of the worst.
When I look for a pup, I'm going to trial him, and want him to run like his hair is on fire. He'd also better be able to hunt as well. The parents better be competing and winning. On a National scale. So, I'm pretty selective as to where I get my pups. Others just want a hunting companion, and that's fine, there are a lot of well known respectable breeders out there who are producing very good pups. But you gotta ask, what are they trying to accomplish by breeding? Is is simply because they have a nice female and want a pup? (Or they think they have a nice female...) Are the dogs proven? What's in the pedigree? I so often see dogs that come from folks who don't research the breed and have a "hyper" dogs on their hands. And then I end up with them in rescue. I've got a great little 9 MONTH old pup that proved to be too hyper for this family. Are you kidding me? He's a baby. He's no energetic then my two boys, but he was cast off because some dumb ass didn't research the breed. So many instances I see this.
So, do your research. Ask everyone you can. Look at the parents.
Be prepared for the pup and the 12+ year commitment you are jumping into.

[abrigg]

I can't say I put a lot of thought into it as most of my dogs are dumped on me by my children!

I do have a gun shy dog that I just used to sire my current litter. Great bloodline, bad owner. Have all the paperwork and he is a fantastic house dog and pet. I have had some breeders tell me that the best sire's aren't always the best hunters. Just because one dog out of the line is gun shy doesn't ruin a whole lineage.

[arcticretrievers]

I know exactly what you mean...

I have been Planning this upcoming Labrador Litter for Years, I have gone back and forth between 3 studs until I found the one that I think will benefit my lines and breeding the most as well as creating sound, capable dogs. I have had people ask me why dont I just breed to so and so dog, because with the prices I am going to be asking for my puppies, it seems all I want is money. However with an across the country AI breeding to a CH/MH and HRCH through UKC, I will probably make only a Fraction of what those people who bred to "so and so" did, but I know that I will have sound, healthy dogs, and honestly that is what I want...a dog thats an asset to the breed, and to the gene pool...After all if we dont have that what are we breeding for?

Arctic Retrievers and Pointers

[RangeViewKennels]

Do we sometimes over analyze it?

We do spend a fair amount of time deciding what breeding to produce. I have a female that is now a year old that was from a litter that was planned for 3 years that was ultimately to produce a puppy in a litter in another 2 years.

I wonder if sometimes we put too much thought in to it. I see people traveling all over the country to breed dogs. I think that sometimes we overlook great dog’s right in our own back yard.

Although we are hunters and I am not into trialing I do look for lines of dogs that do well. If you don’t know a dog it is the only way to know what a dog is. That is not to say that a dog of unknown lines is not a good dog and can’t produce great puppies. The fact is that once upon a time those now famous lines were nothing and unknown until someone displayed the talent of that dog. I have see dogs from famous lines that were turds and dogs from lines that were unknown that I would pay top dollar for.

As far as gun shyness goes, I don’t believe that is genetic. Gun shyness is manmade. I know of a female that is gun shy because someone didn’t know what they were doing and ruined her. She is one of the finest hunting dogs I have ever seen right up to the point a gun is fired. She has produced some truly great hunters. I think you’re ok to breed a dog like that if you make sure that is the only problem they have, but you certainly need to be careful. I know there are people that would disagree with me on that issue but I have a dog from that female that I would put up against any dog. He may win and he may lose but no one would deny that he is spectacular at what he does and I believe he gets it from his mom.

In the end there is nothing better than seeing a dog produced from dogs that you love, excels in whatever venue you participate in.
Anyway, just my 2 cents

[janice258]

Nice discussion, I started young in playing games with dogs in computers until I decided to buy a live dog. Now I am a professional dog trainer and still seeking ways to give comfort to dogs and trainers alike, glad to have stumbled on this thread.

[BlueRiverKennel]

Lots, lots, lots. And it is exhausting. First I try to find foundation dogs that I like. Not easy. Then work them through the program to see if they got, "It". Then make sure all the health screening is up to par along with the other desired traits you look for. Try to match up for weakness and strengths. And when there is interest plan a breeding well ahead of time. After they are born is not the time to try and find all the qualified homes. Most pups are placed in good homes with limited registration before they arrive. Then the hard part, Whelping. Then well done socialization is a must, and follow up with help for the new owners. And of coarse all the vet stuff and shots ect that goes with them. You feel good about it when it is done well afterwards.

[GRIFF MAN]

I can't say I put a lot of thought into it as most of my dogs are dumped on me by my children!

I do have a gun shy dog that I just used to sire my current litter. Great bloodline, bad owner. Have all the paperwork and he is a fantastic house dog and pet. I have had some breeders tell me that the best sire's aren't always the best hunters. Just because one dog out of the line is gun shy doesn't ruin a whole lineage.

Interesting thought you bring up. Not sure I agree 100%.

If a breeder were to research the dogs siblings and see if there were other instances of being gun shy or other mental problems and IF all came back clean maybe it would be okay to breed that dog.
But my problem is to many litter makers (not breeders) don't do the research or look for the right answers or think that one bad litter is 'no big deal'.

I'm sure your litter with that dog is fine, but my question is if the pedigree is great and there isn't any issues with the other siblings then why not use a male from that litter to use as a stud instead of the gun shy male ?

When it comes to litters quanity should not be as important as quality !!

GriffMan

[fuzznut]

I don't have the opportunity to breed a lot of litters. Actually I really don't want to breed a lot of litters. So each and every litter I do breed has to count and has to move my dogs forward. I see a lot of folks who put out litter after litter and I for the life of me can't figure out why they bred this dog to that dog. What is the motive? What are they trying to produce? Do they have a plan, or a goal? If they do, I can't figure out what it is other then to produce puppies to sell.

When we do a breeding we usually already have the next breeding planned in our heads. We keep a puppy or two from Litter A with the expectations of breeding one of them to something from Litter B- which may not be born for a couple of years. Of course until they are on the ground, worked, tested, trained we have no way of knowing if they are worthy of being bred.... but we think it that far out. Sometimes it works out just as planned, other times.... not so good.

I won't use a gun shy dog, or I should say I haven't yet used a gun shy dog. Sure, it could be man made, but it shows me a weakness that I don't wish to bring forward. If a dog is gun shy then I can't hunt it, can't trial it, can't test it in other areas that are important to a gun dog. Wouldn't be any different then not using a dog that is fearful of water, or horses, or people.... it's a problem I don't wish to knowingly bring into our dogs. For me to use a dog with a known fault like that, it would have to be so absolutely outstanding in every single other area.......a perfect dog, except for.....

Maybe I don't breed very much because we do over anylize it all....maybe we should just close our eyes and put them together....some do it and they sell a lot of puppies. Good for them, but don't think that will be a part of our program.

Dual

[ohmymy111]

I have PedX by Breedmate. I constantly do "virtual" puppies looking at wright's coefficient. I also use it to do side by side comparisions of dogs, looking at common lineage, when it occurs, how often it occurs. I also look at the dogs, looking for what their weak points are, and using that knowledge to find a dog that can help improve that area. I also think you have to compete the dogs, to know how good they really are in the field, pedigrees will tell you only so much, and at the end of the day they are hunting dogs, so they have to have a nose and brains to go with it. I also show all my dogs, as a breed is not a breed if conformation is igmored.